“Overdeliver” to Your Prospects and Customers with Brian Kurtz

Jake Randall

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The Profit Junkie Podcast – Ep. 006 – Brian Kurtz

Jake Randall: Welcome to the show everybody. I’m your host, Jake Randall, and let’s go make some profit. Today’s guest is one I’m really, really excited about. He’s somebody I’ve been following for years, and his name is Brian Kurtz. Brian, welcome to the program.

Brian Kurtz: Oh, thanks for having me here. You know, I’m not going to talk about saving on taxes. You worry about that. That’s really important. I’ll talk about different ways that we can make some money on the top line. You worry about the bottom line. Then together I think we can get people to be a lot more profitable.

Jake Randall:  Yeah, absolutely. Well I am so excited. Brian, I’m going to let you tell people a little bit about you, but I just want to tell everybody that I am a huge fan of Brian’s. I have probably, I don’t know, a couple thousand dollars worth of his stuff that I’ve bought from him over the years, right here on my desk. It is some of my most treasured information that I have in my office. Just he is a wise sage with lots of knowledge about marketing and making money. Brian, why don’t you, can you, just for our listeners, can you give them a quick background about who you are, where you came from, your time at Boardroom and all that?

Brian Kurtz: Yeah. I mean, wise sage just means I’m old. You know, it’s funny, my mentor, Marty Edelston, who was the founder of Boardroom, where I worked for 34 years, he used to always say he loved getting old because he got so smart. Interestingly, one of my key things in my career was that, well one of the key things in my career is that too many of my mentors are dead. What that means, I’m not maudlin about that, because when I was 20 to 30 years old, 35, I gravitated to the 60, 70, 80 year olds, because they had all the wisdom. It wasn’t like they had one year’s experience for 80 years, they had 80 years experience, cumulative.

I learned so much from them, and I’m always so grateful that I’ve had this career. That I worked at Boardroom for 34 years. We worked with the best copywriters, the best consultants, and lucky me. At the beginning I was a fly on the wall. When Gene Schwartz came to visit us, and Gary Bencivenga was writing a package, or whatever.

Then over time I became the marketing director. I was the list manager, so that’s what I started at, at Boardroom. I was voted in my high school most likely to become a list manager. It was a great, great, and I didn’t know it at the time, but it was a great place to come from because it was about the audience. The audience, looking back now, when I did my first book, The Advertising Solution, and we focused on six great advertising guys, Halbert, and Schwartz, and Ogilvy, and Hopkins. When they talked about their copy, they didn’t brag about their copy, they talked about the audience. That made me realize I’ve been on the right track, and that lists is the most important thing.

Now, that doesn’t mean that offer isn’t important and it doesn’t mean that copy’s not important. It’s that the list, if you get the list right, you can do the other things sloppy and still make some money. You can’t reverse it. If you have great copy that goes to the wrong list with the wrong offer, you’ve got zero. That was like my, so I have a 41, 39, 20 rule. 41% list, 39% offer, 20%. That doesn’t mean that creative is half as important.

Jake Randall: You know, you talk about that in your book, Overdeliver, a lot.

Brian Kurtz: I do.

Jake Randall: That was one of my favorite sections about this book, was just that slight shift in understanding about the list. I think I kind of, I mean, I’ve always kind of known the list was important, or your customers are. If you’re a realtor or something listening to this or something, your list is your prospects, right?

Brian Kurtz: Your prospects, right.

Jake Randall: Part of it, so much of it is finding the right person. I love your thoughts on that.

Brian Kurtz: Yeah. I mean, I think that people know it, and by putting it in this 41, 39, 20, and then talking about that that doesn’t mean that creative is half as important. If you kick ass with your creative, that’s direct marketing nirvana. Anyway, back to my career. I did 34 years at Boardroom. Did everything. I started in list management. If people don’t know what that is, Boardroom didn’t take advertising. We had newsletters that didn’t take advertising, so our lists were, and we had great lists because they came onto our lists from promotions that were very, very fascination and bullet oriented. They were mail order junkies kind of, and so everybody wanted our lists.

I had the privilege of working with the best consultants and the best copywriters, but I also had the privilege of having a list that everybody wanted to mail. From magazines, to newsletters, to charitable fundraisers, to catalogs, because they were mail order junkies. They were just fantastic, inquisitive, great people, and they were affluent, and so it was a great combination. I don’t think we knew what we had right away, but then we realized we had this great list. That’s the way you got to the Boardroom audience, and that’s what I did first at Boardroom.

Then I got into the marketing side. I did marketing, all sorts of marketing. I did direct mail at the beginning, print. I wear it like a badge of honor that I did 1.3 billion pieces of just direct mail over the last 20 years I was there. Probably close to 2 billion impressions, or things in the mail. Most of those impressions before the internet had to pay for themselves in some way. It was all about return on investment, and so that’s when I just fell in love with direct marketing.

That was my 34 years. We got on TV. I did a whole section in my book about how we got on TV, and how following the anecdotal evidence, in ’89 infomercials came on the scene. I didn’t get into it till 2005, when I figured out how to do it, so it took me 16 years, but I figured it out. That became a huge franchise for us. Then on the internet, we did a lot online, and in email, and email newsletters, and all that.

Then in 2014, I was still at Boardroom, but I was kind of thinking about leaving. I came up with an idea. Marty Edelston, my mentor and the founder, died, and I wanted to do a tribute of that. I did The Titans of Direct Response in 2014. It was amazing. I mean, I had the best, in the audience and on the stage, I had the best 350 marketers in the world. The speakers were just a who’s who of Dan Kennedy, and Jay Abraham, and Joe Sugarman, and Greg Renker, and Ken McCarthy, Perry Marshall.

Anyways, so I did that event, and then after that I realized that, you know, I think Boardroom was great, great run, but I think I wanted to go out on my own. I think it’s the classic case of, those who did it have a responsibility to teach it. I was 57, 58 years old. Jay Abraham would say to me it was my moral responsibility to teach it.

I realized I went from marketing into the millions of consumers of great health and financial information, to a B2B business, which was masterminds, and consulting, but I don’t do that much consulting, and selling educational products. It was almost like I was a direct marketing educational business. Now instead of going direct to consumers to help them, I go to some of the largest multichannel direct response marketers and copywriters. I bring in speakers and guests from all over and finding out what the what’s are. The what’s of the media, the copy, all of that. Then they can go to their audiences and go forth and multiply.

Now I’ve got this group, and it’s been fantastic. I have two mastermind groups, and that’s basically, my business is very, very simple right now, which is the way I like it. It’s powerful, because I’ve got two really good mastermind groups. It gives me an opportunity to bring in the best of the best in the industry, because I have 40 years of developing relationships, and people want to come and speak to a group that I’ve put together. I’m honored to have them, so it’s like a really good win/win.

Then I feel like it’s like I have these think tanks, is what I have. Then what I’ve done to support that is I’m a member of six mastermind groups myself. Some are small, and I don’t pay for, and some are larger and I pay a lot of money for. I spend over $100,000 a year. Not bragging, I’m just saying that I wear it like a badge of honor that I spend that much, because I need to be out there learning what’s new, what’s hot, and then bring it back to my mastermind group. It’s a really good loop.

Then I guess the key is that as much as I teach, I learn. I’m a student. That’s kind of my career in a nutshell. If you want to dive deep in anything there, it would be fine, but that’s kind of my career in a nutshell.

Jake Randall: Yeah. I appreciate that. Here’s one thing I’ve noticed too, is that your name comes up. When I’m talking to people who are marketing, your name comes up in the most eclectic group, like all over the place. I could be talking to somebody who I think was … Like you’ve just, you have been-

Brian Kurtz:  It’s nice to know. It is nice to know. I don’t know about that.

Jake Randall:  Yeah, it comes up in all sorts of eclec- …I’ve got young entrepreneurs and things like that who love you, and I go to some old school guys, and they love you. It’s I think one of your superpowers is really just speaking and serving that audience. I think there’s a lot that people can learn from that.

Brian Kurtz: Well I think it’s I realized I didn’t know what I had after I left Boardroom, but what I am is a bridge of sorts, that connects the fundamentals, the original source, the things that are tried and true. Then I try to apply them to everything that’s state of the art today. I have to learn more of what’s state of the art today because I have to keep up with it.

It’s like back when I was doing direct mail in the 1980s, and space, and very few choices, there wasn’t that much to learn, but you had to go a mile deep. now advertising opportunities are infinite, so you have to be, you don’t have to be an expert in everything, but you have to know something about something, and then bring in the experts. I don’t try to know everything, but I try to know the person who knows that thing.

I feel like, but the thing is a lot of the people I grew up with in direct marketing in the 1980s, they didn’t just, some of them have given up, in a way. They saw the internet as a threat, as I’m not going to be able to do what I’ve been doing. I was intimidated by online marketing, when it started getting really popular, but I went the other way and said, I’ve got to learn this, or else I might as well just retire. I’m still, I mean I’m learning every day. I learn about launches, and I learn about webinars, and I learn about email marketing. Advertising opportunities are infinite.

I always say, when you’re buying media today, you want to buy a la carte. You don’t want to … I knew back in the ’80s you don’t want to go to an agency, because then it’s like everybody that is a general agency, a copywriter for instance, if they’re working in an agency they’re probably not that good or they’re just starting out. A copywriter on their own is making royalties, they’re way beyond that. You buy everything a la carte, and you put together the marketing program, and that’s been something that I’ve seen throughout my career, and it’s so much more today because of all of the advertising opportunities. Because you can’t be in everything, so you’ve got to choose what you want to be in. There are ways to choose certain things that make it look like you’re everywhere, but you don’t have to choose everything to do that. Just a couple of little things that I like to talk about.

Jake Randall: Yeah. One of the things I’d love to get your thoughts on is, so you have, I mean you’ve been in a direct mail business, you have all this experience and all these things. A lot of our listeners are kind of solopreneurs right now, and they’re wondering how to get new clients. That’s kind of a loaded question, but if you were somebody who, giving advice to somebody who’s just getting started. Let’s say your son or somebody came to you that was just getting started, what do you think, as a business owner, you have interesting thoughts about becoming a trusted advisor, and I’d love to hear kind of like how you would advise that person, and the power behind that.

Brian Kurtz: Well I’ll give you an example. I think this one’s in my book. I was at a conference, and a guy was, he had a used car lot. He says, “I’m doing direct mail. I send out a postcard to the people who live within a 30 or 50 mile radius of my lot. So it’s a compiled list, you don’t have to … Everybody has a car basically, so it’s not a list segmentation problem, and I’ll talk about that in a second. It’s basically this is my universe of people that can come to my lot. So I send them a postcard every week and tell them what new cars are in my lot. So this week I have a Malibu and a Subaru, and next week I have a Cadillac and whatever, and I give them a price.”

I said, “Well, that’s okay, but you’re hoping that they’re going to need a new car when you send them the postcard. Of course, if you send them a postcard every week for two years, you might hit it on that one day that they will read it and they’ll come.” I don’t know if that’s a great way to do marketing, but it’s one way to do marketing. The way I like to look at it, even if you’re a used car salesman, you can be a trusted advisor and not just sell cars. This is true in everything. You said, I think you have a lot of real estate people on your list, who are listening today, and a lot of people who are in service businesses. You have to differentiate yourself from everybody else who is selling the same thing you are. Whether it’s chiropractic services, or cars, or anything else.

I suggested, but this is a longer play. It’s not immediate. You’re not going to make a sale right away, but you do the list building on a consistent and regular basis. What I suggested is some form of this. You send out either … You have the list, it’s a compiled list, so instead of sending out postcards every week, send out a 9 by 12 envelope, as an example, and in it, on the outer envelope you say, “The five things that you know when the used car salesman is trying to rip you off.” You actually write something. You write some content. You position yourself as the used car educator, trusted advisor.

Either you give it to them, or if you’re doing email, you let them opt in for the special report and you get their email address. If you send it to them, you say, “Go to my site, and I have another report on something else, that when you know your used car is a lemon.” Something like that. They go to the site, you get their email address, you send them the report, either a PDF or you send them in the mail. Then you start building a list. You’re basically taking that compiled list around your lot and making it into your list, because they’ve raised their hand and they’ve said that they want to be on your list. Then I suggest some kind of regular correspondence.

Now I want you to know, this is not just used cars. This is, if you’re a real estate agent it’s the same thing. If you want to send a postcard and say all the houses that have sold in your area, one way to go. I’m not selling my house for a while, so I’m not that interested. If you can send a report on how to choose a real estate broker, or how to fix up your house when you’re ready to sell. Again, same thing.

Then the key is to get their email. Whether we like it or not, email is the killer act, in my opinion. I mean, everybody says it’s Instagram, it’s Facebook, it’s still email. If I had a big Facebook following, I have a decent following, but if I had a really big one what I’d want to do, and I’ve not done this, is get them somehow onto my email list, because my email list is what I can really start cultivating and massaging.

Even if that used car salesman, or that real estate broker, can send some content, at the P.S., they could say, “Oh by the way, we just got in some new cars if you are in the market for a new car.” You don’t stop marketing, but you don’t have to do the hard sell, but you have to be diligent and consistent with the content. You can get it from other places. You can get an article from a magazine that’s interesting. I think if you can do I think more than once a week from a service business might be too much, but everybody has different. Some people would say you should email every day. I email once a week. Even in my business, what am I selling? I’m selling books, I’m selling a mastermind, but I’m not selling. People open my email.

What’s interesting is that you start doing this way, and a lot of people disagree with this. Our buddy, Ben Settle, says you want to sell something every time. Well, it depends. There’s selling and there’s selling. I would say that you want to basically go out with something of value, and then sell at the bottom, or in the P.S., or embed it somehow that in the P.S., I’ll tell you about such and such. I think if you can deliver value, it doesn’t have to be that long, my emails were long. You don’t have to do that much, but you become that trusted advisor over time.

That’s basic, I mean there’s a lot of tributaries to this, but the basic concept is don’t just go for the sale. You jab, jab, jab, and when you go in for the right hook is when they come to you. I mean, I have people on my list who’ve been on my list for years, and out of nowhere they say, “Hey, what’s this Titans Master Class?” Or, “Oh wow, Breakthrough Advertising, that’s a great book.” Then they buy it.

I guess here’s another analogy that’s really good. I wrote a blog post about this after my book went to press, so it’s in my lost chapters of Overdeliver on my bonus page. I called it Fishing Without Bait. Picture this, you’re on a lake in a boat, and you’re throwing out a rod, and a hook, and a bait. Whatever the bait is, people will eventually, some people might hook onto it. You pull them in, and now you’ve got to have a funnel, and you’ve got to do all the sales things. That’s one way to go, and it can work, it does work for a lot of people. If you have really good bait, it works. Now, to me the bait should be content as opposed to a sales message, but whatever you do, that’s the analogy.

Switch over to the same lake, you’re on it, and the fish are in there, and you just shine a light over the lake. You’re always shining that spotlight, and that’s your content, that’s the beauty of it. Now of course, it’s a slower process, because you’re not putting bait in the water, but your content is your bait. The analogy goes that in that case the fish eventually jump into the boat by themselves, because they are ready for you. I always say that, when you’re ready, I’m here. That’s the concept. When you’re ready, I’m here.

The one thing I will say here, that I’ll say to a new startup, or someone who really needs money, this is not the greatest approach if you need money to pay your rent. It is the approach, or some version of it, to play the business for the long haul. You can do some short range things while you’re doing this kind of process, and you can do both. Of course, if you have time. That’s all I got, I could be retired, so I’ve been building my list like this for five years. I’m up to 12,000 names. Not that big, but you know.

Interestingly, as I built my list, my open rates went up, which is interesting, because it means I’m adding people that are more targeted than just adding people from Facebook, which is fine. I think that if you don’t want to be on my list, I don’t care, but I love having you on my list if you want to be there. When you’re ready for me, I’m here, with educational materials, because that’s me. The used car salesman, when you’re ready to buy, I’m here. Real estate, when you’re ready to sell your house, I’m here. That’s the basic concept. There’s a lot there, but it’s like that’s my spiel on building a list and setting up yourself as a trusted authority.

Jake Randall: Yeah. There’s a lot of great stuff in there. You talk about delivering value, and I want to just kind of segue real quick here forward. I want to talk about your book a little bit, Overdeliver. First of all, you’re always over delivering. Your email open rates, everybody that’s listening should get on his list if you are serious about marketing, because his emails are thoughtful, they’re well put together, and they’re valuable. I read Brian’s emails and I get insight in things that I should change in my business. Whereas a lot of other emails are just kind of spammy or fun.

Brian Kurtz: I think one of the things about my emails are I didn’t invent anything. I’m not telling you something maybe you don’t know, but I put it in a context of an example, or something like that. If you’re not aware of it, or if you’re only somewhat aware of it, maybe I can be the messenger that lets you own that concept. To me, that’s my job. I mean, I’m not looking, again, I didn’t invent quiz funnels, or click funnels, or product launch formula. Those guys are amazing, the guys who can really invent something. Their stuff is also derivative of something else, but then they made it unique.

I don’t really have anything like that, but i do have 40 years of experience than can prove a concept that you might not understand completely, like RFM (Recency, Frequency, Monetary).

Jake Randall: Yes.

Brian Kurtz: If you know what it is, in my book, in the chapter on RFM and list building, you’ll understand what RFM is through examples. If you know what RFM is, you’ll get another understanding of it. I don’t consider myself an inventor of stuff, but I do consider myself someone who can relate concepts with a 40 year experience in the trenches doing them, and maybe you’ll get a clearer understanding of the concept. Whether it’s the 40/40/20 rule, whether it’s lifetime value, or anything that can be useful to you in your marketing, RFM. I mean, that’s kind of the context of my emails.

I appreciate that, what you said. I also will let you know that “Overdeliver” is not a word. It’s either two words or a hyphenated, and that’s why I like it, because I kind of, I can own the word a little bit. I didn’t trademark it, but I own it. I felt like, how could I have a book called Overdeliver without over delivering on the bonuses that I gave away?

Jake Randall: That’s exactly where I was going to ask you to go and tell everybody about it.

Brian Kurtz: I have a site, Overdeliver. I’ll tell you another thing about my bonus page, it’s overdeliverbook.com. You go there and there are 11 bonuses that are, I mean every one of them is incredible. I have the lost chapters of Overdeliver. I have a swipe file of 400 pages, going back to 1900. I have a Dan Kennedy swipe file that he created for the Titans event. I have J. Abraham did a course that he doesn’t sell anymore, that cost him $200,000 to put together, that’s on there digitally. I’ve got two direct mail books by classic direct mail experts, Gordon Grossman and Dick Benson, in PDF form.

There’s 11 bonuses on this thing. You go there, you can go buy the book anywhere. You have to go from the site, and then you come back to the site with your order number, and you get to download all those bonuses. You also get on my list too, so you’ve got to get stuck with me somehow. I think what I’m giving away is, I wanted to make it so irresistible that for a $17 book, I think there might be a special on the ebook right now, I don’t know when this will go live, but there is a special on my ebook. There’s an audio version as well, which I read. This is a very close to my heart, it’s got everything in it that I wanted to put in it, except for the lost chapters, which are in the bonuses. I’m really proud of the site.

The other aspect, besides the fact that I wanted to over deliver on the site, the other aspect of it was that, I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie Coco, it’s a Pixar film.

Jake Randall: Yeah.

Brian Kurtz: It’s technically a kid’s film, but it’s not necessarily a kid’s film because it’s a really powerful film. The premise of the movie is it’s about Día de Muertos, which is a Mexican holiday that celebrates the dead. It’s not sad. It’s really upbeat, because you celebrate them, you’re not mourning them.

Jake Randall: Right.

Brian Kurtz: It’s like a two or three day party, and all that. One of the premises of the film is that when you die, you’re not really dead until people stop remembering you. In fact, the name of the song for the film is Remember Me. There’s a lot of other interesting things in the film, but that’s the thing that got to me. I realized that I’ve got 40 years worth of mentors, of guides, some are alive, and some are dead, and I wanted to honor a bunch of them. That was another thing in the overdeliverbook.com page, of putting as many of the mentors that I mention in the book, some I don’t mention as much, but I put them all in here so I could have them represented.

It’s kind of a reflection of my career, and I wanted everybody who buys the book and reads the book to share some of those mentors. There was a method to the madness, I guess. I think it’s a lot. A lot of people said, “You’re giving away too much.” There’s never too much if you’re over delivering. I think you can over deliver too much, but I’m okay with that.

Jake Randall: Well I think there’s a fabulous, I mean it’s an amazing book. That’s part of why I think you’ve been successful, is because you’re not just looking for, you try to make it look like it’s not like a fair trade. Like $17 and $17 of value. There’s a big lesson that a lot of direct mail people kind of understand that, a lot of sales people sometimes don’t quite get that. You’ve got to make your offer seem irresistible. When you look at the value of all the other things that you put into that book, like it’s a perfect embodiment of what the book’s kind of about in that.

Brian Kurtz: Yeah. No, I think that you touched on something that’s interesting, which is in my book, which is the concept of 100 zero. Which is not just, that’s not just in the case of I’m selling to you, but it’s actually if I’m just contributing to you. In a relationship, if you can go into every relationship, it’s hard, but you can go into every relationship 100 and zero, with no expectation of return. There’ll be a lot of people that are not like you, and they’ll take your contribution and they’ll ask for another contribution, they’ll ask for another contribution, and they’re not giving you anything. I’m okay with that to a degree. I’m not looking for anything.

A friend of mine has the same philosophy, and she once said, she was speaking at my mastermind, and she said, “When I walk into a room, I expect nothing.” A room of business builders, or entrepreneurs, I expect nothing. When you go in, like there’s a blank piece of paper, and that I’m ready to just contribute. What happens is, if I contribute to you and you don’t come back with anything, that’s okay. If someone else comes back and I wasn’t expecting it, that’s the serendipitous piece of that.

I’m not that spiritual, but I do have a belief that what you put out in the world comes back to you in quantity. If it doesn’t right away, I mean this is the book, Give and Take, by Adam Grant, which is one of my favorite books, is a book that talks about that the least successful people in the world are actually givers. There are givers, takers, and matchers. A matcher is like, I’ve got to get 50/50. I never use that, I never will say, “I’ll meet you halfway.” I don’t do that. A lot of negotiation experts say I’m an idiot. I’m not looking to get the better end of the deal all the time. I want it to be as fair as possible.

When you’re working in the 100 zero mindset, it’s such a freeing thing. Adam Grant says the most unsuccessful people are givers, but then the most successful people are also givers. Then he has a lot in the book about how you give, and he’s got some strategies as to when you are not over delivering, but over giving, and when you have to give up on somebody, and how do you recognize a real taker? Then you want to get off of that and get on to the next person who might be a giver, and if they’re not, that’s okay too. I felt I wanted to share that because it’s a …

Jake Randall: Yeah, that’s great.

Brian Kurtz: I have it in the book in the over deliver chapter, because it’s an interesting concept of, if you can be just, I want to know what I can contribute to you first, before I even want to get anything from you.

Jake Randall: That’s fabulous. Where can they get the book again? Just tell me the website. It’s overdeliverbook.com?

Brian Kurtz: Well, I mean, you could buy it on Amazon or whatever, but the best place to buy it is overdeliverbook.com. You go to that page, there are buttons for Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever. You hit the button, opens up a new screen, you get your book. You come back, you put your order number into an opt in box, you get an email with downloading all these bonuses. Go to the site, you’ll see. It’s just an amazing site.

If you have the book, it’s really nothing to buy the book for what you’re getting, so I really feel like I don’t have to sell it, but I want to sell it to people that are going to buy a book. The extras are amazing.

Jake Randall: Let me do the selling. Really, because I have no skin in the game, but everything this guy puts out, I buy. I kind of feel like he always says that he maybe didn’t invent stuff, but I kind of think of you as like the pastor or the rabbi of direct marketing. Maybe you didn’t invent it, but you can help me understand.

Brian Kurtz: Yeah. I’m also the director of sales prevention. I don’t want to push people. Whenever I’m selling my mastermind, or I’m selling them on a book, I send emails and I give them what the deal is, and if they don’t want to … I mean, I don’t have people doing my onboarding and my selling for me. I’m basically saying, this is what I got, if you want it, I’d love to have you. If you don’t want it, that’s fine. I just think it’s a more sane way to be.

Again, I have the luxury of not having to make money on every single thing I do, so that gives me a little bit of wiggle room. I know that’s not the case for most people. Then again, most people in their 20’s and 30’s have to do what I did. I get it, and so I’m not trying to sound like it’s so easy, and I don’t have to sell to you, and all that. That’s not my game. I just want people to know that you can have that philosophy of being a little bit more easygoing with your sales if you map it out and actually come up with a second product, or a renewal of your product, or whatever.

I mean, I think there’s a lot of ways to add to the income of your business. If you’re a dentist, if you’re going to refer people to the endodontist, and can you get a piece of that? I mean, there’s all kinds of things like that if you want to do that. That’s a tollbooth, but it’s a legitimate tollbooth. If you want to do that, that’s like an affiliate person. If you have a list and you want to sell something to them that’s someone else’s product, that’s doable. Actually it’s even better if you can find someone else’s product that you’d want to put your name on, that they would do a white label thing. That you could sell additional products without having to make it. You can just buy it.

There’s a lot of ways to make money, and it’s not just about making money. You can do stuff good and still do well. It’s a really a great way to run your business and run your life.

Jake Randall: I can’t agree more. Great way to run your business and … I’m going to say that again. A great way to run your business and your life is basically to over deliver, right?

Brian Kurtz: I think so, but some people disagree, but that’s okay.

Jake Randall:  That is okay. Well hey Brian, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us. It has been amazing, and I appreciate everything you’ve done for me personally, and thanks for helping all the people listening to this podcast.

Brian Kurtz: Oh, you’re very welcome. I hope it was useful.

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